GM Coase answers a question about the cap on your trading bonus (when you sell loot you did not personally find) at the Officials. I didn’t know there was one!
Category: Game Design Discussions Topic: Treasure System
Date: 02/06/2017 03:03 PM CST
From: HJELTE
Subj: Trading Weekly Cap?
Supposedly there’s a weekly cap on bonus silvers you can get via Trading. No documentation exists about this. Could I get some clarification?
~Whirlin
Date: 02/07/2017 01:30 AM CST
From: GS4-COASE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Due to some extremely persistent farming over the last few months, we’ve had to cap the trading bonus to the first 1m silvers of non-self-looted treasure per week. Any loot you personally receive from hunting doesn’t count towards this — just loot that other people have received and being sold by someone else.
Coase
Date: 02/07/2017 07:23 AM CST
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Due to some extremely persistent farming over the last few months, we’ve had to cap the trading bonus to the first 1m silvers of non-self-looted treasure per week. Any loot you personally receive from hunting doesn’t count towards this — just loot that other people have received and being sold by someone else.
Coase
That’s interesting. I suppose though, it does make sense. I have one character, even with very little trading skill, still gets better return in silver due to being a different (liked) race and having a decent level of influence when compared to my main character that’s 1x in trading and okay influence stat, but is a dark elf and everyone town pretty much hates him.
I could simply just hand everything to the other character and earn more silver….
I’m not against this change at all. I just find it interesting the little loop holes or lengths some people will go through to earn that extra handful of coins in game. Guess it never really crossed my mind to do this.
Thanks for the update.
-Drumpel
Date: 02/07/2017 07:35 AM CST
From: HJELTE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Geeze, I wonder WHO could POSSIBLY be massively farming vast quantity of things that they’re then selling to the NPCs? SO SUSPICIOUS
Thank you for the information Coase. If it’s not too much to ask, I have additional questions! (insert additional question elephant gif here)
1) Is this in regards to strictly bonuses derived from the trading skill, or does it also take into account racial/citizenship bonuses when determining contribution towards the 1m cap? 2) Is the 1 week duration correlated to Lumnis cycle, daily cycle, or like, just raw time? 3) If person A searches, B picks up, at the end of the evening, the sack of goodies given back to person A to sell, the trading bonus will be in effect?
I have two concerns: 1) This change was rather under the radar, and could be material in decision making for players’ training plans, and/or training plans for alts! 2) I think this can greatly devalue the trading skill depending on the answers to (1).
To Drumpel’s point… No… it’s not a LITTLE more silvers. Hand of the Arkati (my capped hunting MHO) is running Reim on a nightly basis, staying in the area for the full two hours. We dedicate a specific looter who burns a major loot boost, and dedicate specific sellers with trading bonuses to sell on behalf of the group. On a typical night, we can walk away with 5-8 full sacks of 200 gems, which net roughly 500k each, before taking into account trading bonuses. One of our members is elven, citizenship of Illistim, and trained pretty well in trading, and gets approximately +25% from trading bonuses. On a nightly basis, that trading bonus results in approximately 625k for 5 sacks up to 1m for 8 sacks of gem sales. This is entirely distributed among the participants, resulting in an individual gain of usually ~30k or so from the trading bonuses alone. Since December 2016, Hand of the Arkati’s group hunting have produced approximately 200m silvers into the economy. However, it should be noted, that this is a daily paid event, which at market value of $8/million costs 120k per entry per day.
120k per entry per person. And some of us will use 2 or more orb uses a day and 4-7 uses on Tuesday nights.
Date: 02/07/2017 07:52 AM CST
From: GALADOS
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Question: Is loot ownership determined on the killing blow, search or pickup?
Date: 02/07/2017 08:14 AM CST
From: PFLATS
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Thank you for the answer, Coase. I was curious about this as well.
Is there a changelog anywhere for things like this?
Date: 02/07/2017 08:22 AM CST
From: LORDKRIP
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Could these sorts of mechanical changes be put in the announcements folder prior to their implementation?
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. – Albert Einstein
Date: 02/07/2017 08:29 AM CST
From: TRIPLEGAME226
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Pretty sure this doesn’t affect me, but why was there no announcement about this? Seems like that should be pretty standard.
~ Methais
Date: 02/07/2017 09:10 AM CST
From: RATHBONER
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>Geeze, I wonder WHO could POSSIBLY be massively farming vast quantity of things that they’re then selling to the NPCs? SO SUSPICIOUS
If its not you, its probably those who have been massively scrolling me in the gemshop in recent weeks. Run in, sell several hundred gems individually, run out. Repeat. Sound like disposal of farmed goods to you?
Date: 02/07/2017 09:13 AM CST
From: SJOSEPH7
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>Any loot you personally receive from hunting doesn’t count towards this — just loot that other people have received and being sold by someone else.
This is false once the cap is in place it affects all loot self looted or not.
Date: 02/07/2017 09:19 AM CST
From: HJELTE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>If its not you, its probably those who have been massively scrolling me in the gemshop in recent weeks. Run in, sell several hundred gems individually, run out. Repeat. Sound like disposal of farmed goods to you?
I mean, I do that too… All of my characters sort out gems worth over like, 1.5k, hand them over to my bard for a grand purification session, sort out chrisms and sell. So, from another person’s perspective, it looks like I’m just unloading gems individually. Probably not reaching the 1m/week mark, unless I’m super lazy and let the gems pile up.
~Whirlin
Date: 02/07/2017 09:31 AM CST
From: PFLATS
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I do the same. It’s easier to use a script to sell all of the gems on me except the ones I need for alchemy rather than sort alchemy gems into another container.
I try to pause it if I someone else walk in, but I’m not 100%.
Date: 02/07/2017 10:14 AM CST
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I’m not sure why I find this so . . . unfortunate. Writing scripts that account for the presence of others is just a simple courtesy. Sell scripts, for example, should at the very least do something like:
for each item in item array {
if !GameObj.pcs.any?
— sell your stuff
else
pause 3
— sell your stuff
end
}
While it may not be very hard to write a script to cycle through all containers and sell off everything of value to a particular shop – it should still be the responsibility of the script writer to understand and help ensure the gaming environment remains usable by those who may be LOOKing in a container for that one particular item they want to sell. I know I’d be among the appreciative ones!
Back on topic of trading caps – also unfortunate. I don’t believe I’ll be in a position to test whether or not it is working properly, but I sure hope it gets unkanked, if little things like storing in lockers and moving items between groups who were involved are kanked.
Doug
Date: 02/07/2017 10:30 AM CST
From: LORDKRIP
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Coase, I often make gold slabs out of slagged silver coins from my boxes. When I slag a box, what happens to the flag on ALL the treasure about who it was/is associated with? What about the silver slab? What about when I turn it into gold? Call it a gut feeling, but something tells me this sort of thing didn’t get accounted for. Will these transmutations of objects as part of the treasure system still count as ‘personal loot’, because the object is now 2x removed from the thing I originally looted?
I would find it disappointing to say the least if this sort of thing isn’t, or even worse, can’t be accounted for. This change basically nerfs Silver to Gold if that’s the case. And since I know it wasn’t me doing the ‘extremely persistent farming’, I’d like to believe that Silver to Gold isn’t the problem that’s trying to be fixed here.
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. – Albert Einstein
Date: 02/07/2017 10:57 AM CST
From: LADYFLEUR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I find it absolutely ridiculous that this kind of “change” was not announced. There should be a notification in-game when the cap for the week is reached so we can stop playing.
Date: 02/07/2017 12:59 PM CST
From: LEAFIARA
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
1 – I noticed recently that training Trading has been making basic cobbling materials in the Landing (heavy tanned leather and tanned thrak hide) cost more for me instead of less. Maybe it was always bugged like this and I just didn’t notice since I didn’t train Trading for months until recently, and I did assist it as a bug, but I thought I’d bring it up here too in case it’s some kind of unintended consequence of the cap.
2 – If this really was caused by Reim, then I don’t see why. In two hours, I could finish six bounties no problem and come within 70k (counting the delayed gain from selling BPs for silver) of matching what I get when I go to Reim with Hand of the Arkati, all while getting far more experience from instant absorption and being on supernodes for most of that time. Once a week it’s fantastic to go with the group and clear out 14 LTE boosts, which is what I do, but I’m honestly not sure that going every day has a person coming out ahead.
When it comes to treasure system adjustments in response to farming concerns, I have the choice to either make relatively widespread changes that affect everyone (and announce them) or make relatively targeted changes that specifically address the issue (aka making it harder for farmers to operate). If I have to make the choice between spoiling it solely for the people engaging in the behavior or spoiling it for everyone, I will choose the former first, everytime (it should be noted that group hunting in Reim is not the issue that triggered this). Announcing highly targeted anti-farming changes like this simply make them ineffective faster, which hurts everyone far more in the long-run than knowing about them sooner and in detail.
Coase
Date: 02/07/2017 01:06 PM CST
From: COLEMANJ
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
The way I perceived the post, is let’s say I sell 100,000 silvers worth of items. However, my trading gets my 125,000. Is it just the extra 25k that goes towards the cap or the whole 125k?
Date: 02/07/2017 01:12 PM CST
From: LADYFLEUR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Alternatively, you could address the actual problem and do more cutting down of AFK script farming bot characters. This sounds like collectively punishing everyone for the actions of a few. It sounds like the cap currently isn’t working and is instead just tracking total loot sold per character for the week, which hurts the casual player far more than those farmers who will probably just write a script and spread the sales around their armies.
Date: 02/07/2017 01:15 PM CST
From: LADYFLEUR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Put differently, many people manage their gem and loot inventory on a weekly or less frequent basis when things pile up. Forcing people to micro-manage the sales of their loot detracts from the fun of the overall game and makes it even more tedious than ever to play. This is just a level of hassle that is another instance of two steps back when it comes to development. I don’t want to have to check in and sell things x times a day just to make sure everything is working properly instead of allowing people the flexibility to manage their schedules as we had before.
Date: 02/07/2017 01:42 PM CST
From: CHULAK
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Now that we all know about this, and the fact that it does not appear to be working as intended, can a message stating that we have reached the weekly maximum be put in place so we can begin to help locate the issues that this patch has generated?
Speaking in Faendryl, Jahosk says, “You will now be known as Blade Durakar, the Palestra.”
Date: 02/07/2017 02:14 PM CST
From: HJELTE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I just purified and sold off a sack of 250 gems that all had value above 3k. I ended up with a sale of 850k. The base value of the gems pre-singing/sorting was 550k or so, that’s also with separating chrism-quality gems. With about 10% in trading, I’d need to do that a dozen times a week to hit the cap. That’s impressive if you’re obtaining over that much on a weekly basis. And I’d also wonder how you’re managing all of that with a 500 item cap.
It’s justifiable not to mention this to a broader audience, but I think there have been unintended consequences. I’ve mentioned earlier that I believe that our MHO is flexible enough to work within the guidelines you’ve established through these changes to come out unscathed, as we have a good group and are incredibly agile. I would assume that the same agility is not available to the aggressive farmers who spurred this change without additional investment of characters/etc.
~Whirlin
Date: 02/07/2017 06:26 PM CST
From: LEAFIARA
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
Something’s screwy either because of this patch or just coding at some time in the past. Here’s a trimmed log of some inconsistency–higher Trading skill means cheaper prices when buying forging slabs, but higher prices when buying cobbling materials or handwraps at Tykel’s. I’d test more, but I only have so much time right now.
>info Influence (INF): 100 (30) … 100 (30)
>skills base Skill Name | Actual Actual | Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal Trading……………………….| 162 62 62
[Warehouse, Storage Room – 15520] Obvious exits: south
>order 1 of 1 You ask about the price of a tanned thrak hide.
The warehouse manager says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 404.”
[Public Workshops Supply Stall – 8618] Obvious paths: south
>order 1 of 12 You ask about the price of a heavy vultite slab.
Samilla says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 88452.”
[Tykel’s Arms, Showroom – 402] Obvious exits: out
>order 1 of 58 You ask about the price of some leather handwraps.
Tykel Rone says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 12133.”
[updating skills]
Attempting to launch the web skill manager… Skill goals updated!
>skills base Skill Name | Actual Actual | Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal Trading……………………….| 161 61.997 61 2 hours, 29 minutes
[Warehouse, Storage Room – 15520] Obvious exits: south
>order 1 of 1 You ask about the price of a tanned thrak hide.
The warehouse manager says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 401.” [lower Trading = price down from 404]
[Public Workshops Supply Stall – 8618] Obvious paths: south
>order 1 of 12 You ask about the price of a heavy vultite slab.
Samilla says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 89505.” [lower Trading = price up from 88452]
[Tykel’s Arms, Showroom – 402] Obvious exits: out
>order 1 of 58 You ask about the price of some leather handwraps.
Tykel Rone says, “Since you’re a citizen of this town, I’ll drop the price to 12048.” [lower Trading = price down from 12133]
Date: 02/07/2017 07:05 PM CST
From: SJOSEPH7
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>Alternatively, you could address the actual problem and do more cutting down of AFK script farming bot characters.
I don’t think AFK scripting is the problem here Ladyfleur because there is already protocol in place to deal with afking scripting, this is the result of someone making an effort to play within the rules which meant staff’s hands are tied and I’m guessing this is why the rules were changed.
I have a feeling that my Wizard is the one that sparked all of this. I don’t script hunt/ use Lich but my Elven Wizard is the designated Merchant (110 trading 20% discount/bonus) for my characters, I try to get through all of my login rewards and most things will go through her so you can see how that trading bonus would add up.
Date: 02/07/2017 09:26 PM CST
From: KANDOR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>The point though is that this nerf is most punitive to those at cap who are fully maxed out in trading and with enhancives. The more bonus one receives from the trading skill, the more quickly one hits the cap.
This may not be how the skill was intended to be used, though. I’ve said this before, but min/maxing is a trap in online games. Players who do this sort of thing are playing right on the cusp, and every so often the cusp gets “taken in” for game balance reasons.
Date: 02/07/2017 10:22 PM CST
From: KANDOR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
To me, and maybe to others, trading just screams “gold farming.” In GS3 it was a one-off, something to pick up a few ranks in. When GS4 arrived, trading should have been removed from the game. It wasn’t meant to be trained the way people use it now.
Date: 02/08/2017 12:11 AM CST
From: FIREPHOENIX
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
It seems like a response to abuse at the time it was known and fixed with approval. Why would it be an announcement…err more awareness? I suppose that’s valid.
Date: 02/08/2017 02:01 AM CST
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I’m curious about how many people are actually hitting a million silvers in loot per week with any kind of regularity. Most of my characters that are in a certain level range can fairly easily earn a million/week via hunting when I have the time to spend, but about 1/4-1/5 of that is silvers found in boxes or dropped by critters (more for those that open their own boxes).
Either loot is dramatically better in capped hunting grounds then in level 70-90 hunting grounds and not nearly as bad as I’ve been led to believe over the last 10+ years, or people’s perceptions of what they’re bringing in is skewed.
What has me concerned is the reports that this change has affected the BUYING of items (I haven’t had the potentially affected characters in game to check myself). The discount I get for buying wands is the sole reason two of my characters train in trading and if they’re not getting that discount anymore (or worse, having to pay more because they train in Trading), I’ll have to reevaluate how I hunt with those ones. I’ve had wizards follow my empath and cleric around, picking up all the spent gold wands I drop while hunting….
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Date: 02/08/2017 02:59 AM CST
From: GS4-COASE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
This change has nothing to do with buying items. If there is an issue with buying items from certain shops, it is an entirely separate and pre-existing one.
Coase
Date: 02/08/2017 08:28 AM CST
From: RATHBONER
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>I’m curious about how many people are actually hitting a million silvers in loot per week with any kind of regularity.
Some weeks I might have breached a 100k quota, but not often and not by much (unless I did Hand of Arkati trips). Reim being the main risk, because its structure makes
>Either loot is dramatically better in capped hunting grounds then in level 70-90 hunting grounds and not nearly as bad as I’ve been led to believe over the last 10+ years, or people’s perceptions of what they’re bringing in is skewed.
Capped hunting grounds vary dramatically in loot depending on which is overhunted at any particularly time. Most people spend most of their time in overhunted areas (because thats why those are the overhunted areas) and thats why loot is normally reported as pretty bad. If you can manage whatever keeps people out of the normally unpopular areas, they are pretty rich. I’m stuck in Nelemar until the aiming bug is fixed, because not being able to aim without being hammered with 10s RTs from a bug really hurts a shield based character, and its pretty dire, but loot boosts provide significant mitigation.
Date: 02/08/2017 10:43 AM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
“I’m curious about how many people are actually hitting a million silvers in loot per week with any kind of regularity.” — Starchitin
Normal practice for me is to throw all the boxes into my disk and haul them back to town with me, but dump them on mules on the other account (because I’m busy playing this character right here).
Then periodically I will bring the Thief in, and open a big stack of boxes.
Then, when the Thief has built up a big cache of valuable gems, I’ll shift them over to the Bard for a mass Purify-fest.
And finally, I dump the big stack of rocks onto the Trading-trained guy to sell off.
.
When the engine is banging along on all cylinders, the Trader can routinely be depositing over a quarter million coins in a go (from 6+ each diamonds and emeralds in the near-10k range, stacks of sapphires & pearls, some [typically 2-6] 4k scarabs, and a whole mess of Duplicated wands ranging from 400-1300 apiece). And there are in fact times that I’m clearing a haul every few days, but I don’t think I do it with any great regularity. (That is to say, I see that kind of figure routinely, I just don’t have to go and do all that process terribly often.)
Date: 02/08/2017 09:31 PM CST
From: CAVEMANIAC
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
With the introduction of Loot Boosts, The Confluence, Sanctum of Scales, Reim and the general teleportation QOL improvements there are more ways than ever to hunt at cap if you are in the WL/IMT/SH area. Because of this the loot IS better because hunting pressure is divided.
By hunting in the less popular areas I can definitely see people getting large amounts of silver if they were focused on it.
Date: 02/09/2017 07:31 AM CST
From: HJELTE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
So, I’ve learned more about the underlying reason that this was changed, and I think more punitive, specific responses should be made with the offender, or changes in the upstream pressure mechanics with that high of a level differential. … I’ll send an e-mail.
~Whirlin
Date: 02/09/2017 08:56 AM CST
From: ALLENM20
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
The message boards had been relatively quiet for awhile and then this horse was dragged through town, beaten bloody, and turned into glue.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, “Adventure” in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
Date: 02/09/2017 10:03 PM CST
From: SJOSEPH7
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>or changes in the upstream pressure mechanics with that high of a level differential. … I’ll send an e-mail.
So it is me….. why didn’t someone come see me privately and say something instead of all this cloak and dagger when I asked for help, if you have been watching me play for months you should have known I’m not the sort of person to bite anyone’s head off if you came to me. I always do my best to play within the rules which is why I don’t use Lich (I will log into Lich to travel to far away towns). I wish you’d said something to me months ago because it looks (like someone mentioned on the unofficial forum) the change was made out of fear and frustration and if that’s the case then there’s more going on here than I’m aware of and even more reason to speak to me earlier. The change that was made would barely effect me as it’s too easy to work around, 40 ranks on all characters vs 110 on one is not alot of difference it’s only 6%.
If anyone is under the impression that I’ve been farming for hours on end I really haven’t. I normally don’t hunt for longer than 15 minutes in any given hour and depending on how busy my day is and how many boost loots I have that can go from anywhere from 2-6 hunts. When I’m hunting I normally have 2 other characters to carry my boxes and send mana, if that’s what the issue was I could have just made more trips to town as someone previously mentioned and made some wands. I think the issue is as Whirlin pointed out is the treasure in underhunted areas. Ok read the guidlines set out here https://gswiki.play.net/Treasure_system_(saved_posts) There are about 600 creatures in Elanthia, with the population the way it is that means that there is always a monster under lvl 100 that is very underhunted, they exist all the way up to cap I’ve found them everywhere. Even without loot boosts some of them are VERY rich even hunting at +9 levels above, from what I’ve seen hunting pressure is a far bigger influence than level lvl range or hunting in a group.
If my intention was to make bags of money I would have been scripting these areas all day like a lunatic, I know people like this exist because I’ve seen them hunting for hours on end when the Americans are in bed! yes peekaboo I see you and I know what you’re doing!
Anyway enough of my waffle, I do feel slightly like an outsider this community is so small and close that I wish at least one person could have said something to me months ago, there are so many gamehosts and GMs. I don’t want to upset anyone so I will end my subscriptions and they should finish in March, please believe me when I say this is not me going off in a huff because it’s not, it would have happend anyway when spring is in full swing and I’ve had a genuinely lovely experience. I read the unofficial forums and watch you play and my honest opinion is that on the whole you’re a beautiful community. Elanthia and it’s citizens provide support for a handful of seriously emotionally damaged and insecure people, and given what I have experienced it brings me sense of peace that this place exists for them.
I’ll be using this month to finish off my enchants and give away my things, I’ll leave the more expensive things with Allereli (don’t get your hopes up there aren’t many!) from what I’ve seen the Twilight Hall do a great job with raffles and the like, I’ll post a list of everthing else on the weekend, everything will be free so let your conscience be your guide.
Date: 02/09/2017 10:50 PM CST
From: GS4-COASE
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>So it is me
This change was not targeted at you, no. For everyone else, unless you’ve been pulling in tens of millions of silvers per week for the last few months consistently, you can also safely assume that you’re not anywhere close to being the issue.
Coase
Date: 02/09/2017 10:56 PM CST
From: ROBLAR
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
I haven’t seen any party mentioned (here or the PC), and only staff would know.
But hopefully you don’t leave over it. Even if it was your actions that triggered the change, don’t take it personally.
Date: 02/10/2017 01:34 AM CST
From: VANKRASN39
Subj: Re: Trading Weekly Cap?
>I’ll leave the more expensive things with Allereli (don’t get your hopes up there aren’t many!) from what I’ve seen the Twilight Hall do a great job with raffles and the like
I greatly appreciate and thank you for the huge compliment and gesture, but I do hope you see that your actions were not the cause, and also hope that you change your mind about both quitting and giving everything away. Keep on playing and enjoying what the current TH officers are doing 🙂
