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Retser starts fixing Player Shops

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GM Retser already fixing Playershops, and I think what he lists as Phase 1 is live right now on the TEST server. Phase 2, RSN. I’m not even going to try to paraphrase this into a single headline. READ:

http://bit.ly/2beKj28

Category: Game Design Discussions
Topic: Player-Run Shops

Date: 08/23/2016 12:02 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Current State: Playershops
Hello everyone, as mentioned during the State of Elanthia, I am in the process of working through playershops.

Current state is what is being addressed now. This is fixing the underlying problems with player shops.
Future State will be addressed after current state is completed. This will include playershop improvements and suggestions.

I have a mostly working version of player shops on the test server. The below phased outline is on the test server.

Phase 1: (Current)
– All shops that have not had their owner visit within 6 months have been closed and marked as abandoned.
– Rent is now being drawn, everyone has been dinged 1 month rent.
– I have not started evicting shops yet.

If you have a shop and have the time, please hop over to the test server to run through them and test basic functionality.

Phase 2:
– Confirm functionality.
– Evict abandoned Shops.
– Open up for new shops to be placed.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/23/2016 12:40 PM CDT
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Any chance of having an urchin-like function, where you can stand in the entryway to the Shopping District and “tell urchin to rummage for rolaren badelaire”, and he will report back results?
(i.e. Maybe an ‘order’-like tabular list showing the exact item(s), the shop-owner, and the price.)

This would obviate much of the need for any external workaround, like PlayerShops.


Date: 08/23/2016 12:51 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Yes, something like that would most likely be possible pending resources and balancing. A catalog with item delivery would be an ideal scenario. That would be something for future state.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/23/2016 01:03 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Hey Retser – regarding future state

There were a lot of suggestions, ideas, etc. shared and captured around playershops future state at one point. Do you have those at your fingertips for when we get to future state development or would it be helpful for people to re-share their ideas again here?

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 08/23/2016 01:09 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
There is a long collection of notes on how to improve things from staff members and players. When we get to future state we can start working through more specifics and build as we go.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/23/2016 01:20 PM CDT
From: LUXELLE
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
+1 to hiring a kid to find (whatevers). Extra credit if I can do it and leave them with Ronan’s blessing on them … πŸ™‚


Rohese: “… the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)


Date: 08/23/2016 01:40 PM CDT
From: FIREPHOENIX
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Retser the Code Breaker.


Date: 08/23/2016 01:42 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>> There is a long collection of notes on how to improve things from staff members and players.

A fellow had just been hired as the new playershops developer. The playershops developer who was stepping down met with him privately and presented him with three numbered envelopes. “Open these if you run up against a problem you don’t think you can solve,” he said.

Well, things went along pretty smoothly, but six months later, development took a downturn and he was really catching a lot of heat. About at his wit’s end, he remembered the envelopes. He went to his drawer and took out the first envelope. The message read, “Blame your predecessor.”

The new developer called a staff meeting and tactfully laid the blame at the feet of the previous developer. Satisfied with his comments, his peers — and management – responded positively and the problem was soon behind him.

About a year later, the project was again experiencing challenges, combined with a series of production challenges. Having learned from his previous experience, the developer quickly opened the second envelope. The message read, “Promise to deliver fixes RSN.” This he did, and the project quickly rebounded.

After several consecutive smooth quarters, the project once again fell on difficult times. The developer went to his office, closed the door and opened the third envelope.

The message said, “Prepare three envelopes.”

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 08/23/2016 02:03 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>> If you have a shop and have the time, please hop over to the test server to run through them and test basic functionality.

I have a shop and am also partner in a shop. I wasn’t able to break anything!

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 08/23/2016 02:18 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Last post for awhile… promise!

I generated all of the following while standing in the shop that I am a partner for. This is slightly nit-picky and the current message are ‘correct’ but I feel like they should all pretty much tell my that only the shop owner can do this.

>shop extend
You must be standing in your shop’s main room to do this.

>shop partner
Only the shop owner can manage partnerships.

>shop transfer
Only the shop owner can transfer ownership.

>shop ban
Citizenship is required in order to ban others from your shop. This is the oddest message for me. Just tell me I’m not the shop owner since even if I am a citizen I still cannot ban someone from this shop.

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 08/24/2016 01:48 AM CDT
From: GOAT
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops

Retser, you have me scared now. This is the point where GMs disappear without a trace.


Date: 08/24/2016 08:48 AM CDT
From: VANKRASN39
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>shop ban retser
Retser is ejected from the shop with little fanfare.
Retser has been ejected from your shop.
Retser is now banned from your shop.

*maniacal laugh*


Date: 08/24/2016 09:23 AM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT!

Fare thee well goat.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/24/2016 11:17 AM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I cleaned out about 31 shops from the landing (TEST SERVER) in the first and second row.

If you get a chance, go buy a permit from the warehouse and claim a shop.

Add some items, break some things.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/24/2016 01:19 PM CDT
From: THORNBROOK
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops

>>shop ban retser
Retser is ejected from the shop with little fanfare.
Retser has been ejected from your shop.
Retser is now banned from your shop.

>>*maniacal laugh*

Being outside your shop to witness that would have been a hoot.


Date: 08/24/2016 02:35 PM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>I cleaned out about 31 shops from the landing (TEST SERVER) in the first and second row.

Nice.

Do Solhaven next! I want to play around as a shop owner again, see if I can break things.

-Drumpel


Date: 08/24/2016 02:58 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I evicted all the abandoned shops in solhaven on the TEST SERVER, have fun!

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/24/2016 04:29 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I decreased the required owner check in for abandonment down to 3 months from 6 months.
This will match the rent time and eviction of 3 months behind.

50 more shops were flagged as abandoned during this process.

This will give people up to 3 months down from 6 unattended with rent in the shop before it will be flagged as abandoned.

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/24/2016 04:44 PM CDT
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Well before go-live, is this worthy, perhaps, of an email blast?

I’m fairly sure there are some current subscribers who go for more than 3 months (perhaps as many as 6 – pay forward 3? and wait 3 late?) between visits.

Aspen – I’m looking at you.

Doug


Date: 08/24/2016 04:48 PM CDT
From: GS4-SLEKEN
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
We will announce this in many ways. We’ve stated this before in several places. We will honor that.

SGM Sleken


Date: 08/24/2016 04:49 PM CDT
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Ahh, my apologies. Not owning any shops, I only graze through here – but the time restrictions caught my eye.

Thanks for setting me straight!

Doug


Date: 08/24/2016 05:21 PM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
The big boss Sleken hit the nail on the head. All changes will be outlined and announced prior to release. As for right now, all changes are just in the test server for testing purposes. Nothing is final yet!

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/24/2016 05:31 PM CDT
From: GS4-SLEKEN
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
<<Nothing is final yet!
>>

It’s final that nothing is final….

SGM Sleken


Date: 08/24/2016 10:59 PM CDT
From: BRANDTJRT
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
If you are behind on your rent or visits, can your shop manifest glow angrily perhaps?

Actually, I just kind of want a talking manifest now, that will insult the races/professions I have at >100% and compliment my shop management skills.

More than anything, beyond rambling about things, I am excited that changes are afoot. πŸ™‚

_ _ _
Retser catches your eye, smiles slowly, and begins flirting with you.


Date: 08/25/2016 12:11 PM CDT
From: ARCHIGEEK
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I think it would be a good business move to box up and hold for at least a year, anyone’s goods that get removed and their shop closed.

I’d hate to see someone not come back because they lost a bunch of really valuable stuff. People have lives that interfere with their gameplay, they serve overseas in dangerous places where access is quite limited, etc. Let’s make it easy for people to say “hey, I’m still here”!

Note: this doesn’t mean I don’t want to see a lot of shops open up for people. I think everyone wants to broaden access to shops. I’d much prefer to see them used for sales rather than simple excess storage.

Kerl


Date: 08/25/2016 01:53 PM CDT
From: JADE123
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Just to refresh my absent brain, the rent is automatically taken, yes? I’m not forgetting to do something to make sure the rent is paid, am I?

Charna’s Idiot – With new and improved imbecile power!


Date: 08/25/2016 02:25 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
In the past it has been automatically removed from your shop – 10k per room.

I typically leave 100k in my shop as a baseline to make sure rent is covered for up to 3 months (even though I visit my shop weekly).

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 08/25/2016 03:23 PM CDT
From: JADE123
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Thanks!

Charna’s Idiot – With new and improved imbecile power!


Date: 08/25/2016 05:11 PM CDT
From: ROLFARD
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Silly request, but those shops that are especially active pay a lot in tax.

Could I propose that monthly tax collected offsets rent?

If i’m not mistaken rent is 10k per room per month (30k per month for 3 rooms) and approximately 1m in goods a month would offset that in tax.


Date: 08/26/2016 12:20 AM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
TEST SERVER I flagged the remaining abandoned shops to go through the eviction process. This will finish by morning.

I turned on permit sales in the remaining realms.

GO BREAK ALL THE THINGS! Have fun!

Retser, ASGM
Heavy Breathing Guru


Date: 08/26/2016 04:53 PM CDT
From: RISHIB1
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Silly request, but those shops that are especially active pay a lot in tax. Could I propose that monthly tax collected offsets rent? If i’m not mistaken rent is 10k per room per month (30k per month for 3 rooms) and approximately 1m in goods a month would offset that in tax. – Rolfard

And now, tax incentives have come to Elanthia! πŸ™‚

(maybe this only strikes me as funny because I’ve been negotiating a tax incentive package for a new facility for the past few months.)

Rishi
– Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, “You’re no Kembal.”

[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.


Date: 09/01/2016 08:07 AM CDT
From: KITHUS
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Hey Retser, at the risk of being tarred and feathered in my instance for suggesting this… I assume you will be turning the changes on in Platinum first so we can beta it and help you find any bugs with a smaller player group? Really I’m saying I volunteer Plat to beta these changes and hoping my fellow Platters don’t kill me in my sleep.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246


Date: 09/01/2016 01:19 PM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I just hope when things are fleshed out and shop spots open, it’ll be restricted to 1 shop per account so you don’t get a handful of people bogarting shops to use as extra storage space or to hold and then resell once deeds/permits are no long available.

Then maybe sometime later if there are still available shops, open it back up to 1 shop per character.

-Drumpel


Date: 09/02/2016 12:26 AM CDT
From: KANDOR
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
Shops, or the space inside them to sell things, are a potential revenue stream for Simu. Microtransactions didn’t exist when shops were first implemented. One room could be free with a premium account, and each additional room is $5/mo. Or whatever price works best — something as low as $2 or $3/mo might get a lot of players willing to pay extra if it’s the only option, available even to F2P.


Date: 09/02/2016 12:49 AM CDT
From: LADYFLEUR
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>Shops, or the space inside them to sell things, are a potential revenue stream for Simu. Microtransactions didn’t exist when shops were first implemented. One room could be free with a premium account, and each additional room is $5/mo. Or whatever price works best — something as low as $2 or $3/mo might get a lot of players willing to pay extra if it’s the only option, available even to F2P.

This is a terrible idea. People barely use shops as it is and the official forum marketplace is all but dead. That would only ensure even more of exodus to third party methods of sales.


Date: 09/02/2016 07:41 AM CDT
From: DAID
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
GS4-RETSER
TEST SERVER I flagged the remaining abandoned shops to go through the eviction process. This will finish by morning.

So, my own test was sort of one of negligence and slackery. Hey, someone’s gotta do it!

I waited until a few days after this was posted, since I never keep any money in my shop (then, if there’s money, I know something sold). From my end, nothing happened at all. That’s kind of concerning unless I missed something. I missed a month’s rent but there’s no feedback?

Since I never had my shop under the former system, I’m not really clear on these terms. Can you please define “abandoned”? Zero inventory, no money, and owner has not visited in (so many days)? Only some of the above?

Also this may be in here somewhere but how does it work if we miss a month’s rent? I might have been checking too quickly, but I didn’t see a way to do anything about it. It would be nice if it worked more like guild dues, where we can pre-pay etc.

I really like Rolfard’s request where the item tax is applied to rent. I know these aren’t the same thing in real life but anyway I like it.

I also do not like the idea of player-run shops using microtransactions and other things. The direction the game is going in that regard is kind of scary and/or appalling. More and more microtransactions, mini-quests, etc, yet of course subscription prices are all static. To stay on topic, as long as businesses are all about profit, let’s try to somewhat limit the ‘profit’ on player shops to players. We already have simulated tax for realism, and we will be getting back to simulated rent for realism, so let’s not ding our actual pocketbooks on this one. The Premium perk of extra rooms is at least among the true remaining premium perks that hasn’t been overshadowed by something else in recent years.


Date: 09/02/2016 08:19 AM CDT
From: KAYB8
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
It’s been stated by an nir that there are no plans to limit shops per account. No one has said this has changed.


Date: 09/02/2016 08:46 PM CDT
From: KANDOR
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
>People barely use shops as it is and the official forum marketplace is all but dead. That would only ensure even more of exodus to third party methods of sales.

For the sake of comparison, let’s say every character had a shop, rent-free. Most stuff — at least, the high end stuff — would still get sold via third party methods because it’s no harder to do, there is no tax, and there is more accountability. Selling excess gems, skins, and ingredients at exorbitant prices would happen in shops; these are commodities and are best left in-game as-needed for a buyer who has no other option. This is a best-case scenario; not everyone will have a shop, so the ones that don’t will look to third party methods, anyway. What can be done to give the in-game shop enough of an advantage to prevent this?


Date: 09/06/2016 11:08 AM CDT
From: CMNABRIT
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
I am lucky enough to own a shop in river’s rest and partnerships in a couple others, due to trading part of my life away singing to shop inventories. In my experience how much the shop gets used has so much to do with location (both the town, and how far back into the shopping area) and inventory (good pricing, quality goods). I sell a lot of arrows, and items I buy in excess at merchant events like instrument straps, poisons, magic crystals, at slightly high prices, but in RR there is sort of a captive audience,(so they can buy their skittles from some other cloud around here.) Business is pretty good but when you have 25 to 50 of every item in a shop, all of that is to say the inventory might not appear to change substantially unless you are the owner.

I am excited to hear that the shop system is being worked on, as a long time citizen of Cysaegir the one town where you can be a citizen but not own a shop. Can a shopping area please be added to our town of artisans, as a half-elf I cannot gain full citizenship in Ta’vaalor, or Ta’illistim, which precludes having a shop anywhere in the eastern half of Elanthia which seems…. a gross oversight, arbitrary, draconian, unnecessary… many things spring to mind. I am confident that given all the focus on playershops Retser and Sleken won’t let this oversight continue. Please give Cysaegir a shopping area, or even just a couple wagons, heck even a stall, a donkey with a really flat saddle, we aren’t picky, we just want someplace to sell our wares.

Archales


Date: 09/07/2016 11:37 AM CDT
From: GS4-RETSER
Subj: Re: Current State: Playershops
@RISHIB1: That is something for future state.
@Drumpel, Daid: I have no plans to overhaul the existing system to limit by account.
@Kandor: There are no plans to charge real life money for shops at this time. Your second post is all something for future state.
@Kithus: I enjoy making plat suffer, so, maybe!
@Daid: You have to miss 3 months of rent for your shop to get evicted. Missing one or two months doesn’t really do much. You can already pre-pay by leaving silver in your shops balance. Abandoned is flagged when the owner hasn’t checked into their shop within a 3 month span. I have no plans to add microtrans to the player shops.
@CMNABRIT: You could just say, can we please get shops in Cysaegir? πŸ˜‰ I looked into getting Cysaegir shops and was able to get them working. However, I don’t know how real it will be to get them pushed in when I move all the changes into the live environment. It may be something shortly after the re-release of player shops and fixes.

There were large problems in the eviction process. First, due to people manually fixing shops over the years we have some shops setup improperly, these will all need to be accounted for and addressed. Second, the system itself has had bugs that still need to be fixed. This is going to require a lot more data gathering, manipulation, and error handling. I haven’t had time to start on this since my last post.

Retser, ASGM