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GM Mikos Posts Forging Technicalities

GM Mikos posts some information about successes and failures in forging. There’s 7 points, plus a table of … forging mechanics goodness for your reference:

http://bit.ly/2oz44L3

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging

Date: 04/14/2017 08:51 AM CDT
From: GS4-MIKOS
Subj: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
It’s been too long since I last provided information for those invested in forging, so hopefully the following will shed some additional light on what’s what…

1. The most recent updates noted in any of the forging system scripts is the addition of the Gift of Eonake benefit. No one’s modified the grinder, the vise, or the forge recently in any other way, so inordinate runs of bad luck are just that. The RNG in GS has been “odd” in that regard since forever.

2. Various glyphs have differing levels of complexity, it’s referenced in the text of the placard in the workshop supply stall. The complexity/difficulty level ONLY limits which glyphs a weaponsmith can work with at any given skill level. If you’re capable enough to scribe the glyph onto a slab, you’re capable enough to produce the part. Beyond that, the difficulty of the glyph doesn’t impact anything further in the system that I’ve been able to identify.

3. The chance to successfully forge an item is determined by:

1-500 [appropriate forging skill (OHE, BR, etc.)]
[wound/HP-loss penalty]
+ [Forging stat bonuses averaged] (Effective Con bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)
{Comparatively, Grinder stat bonuses are (Effective Dex bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)}
[material’s magical-plus penalty (higher plus = higher penalty)]
[material’s size penalty (each “pound” of material being worked is a -1 penalty)]
(working larger masses of material at the forge is inherently more difficult)
+ [forging hammer’s quality modifier]
[profession handicap]
+ [Racial bonus]

{Chance of success}

1-500 RNG
If RNG < {Chance of success} then SUCCESS.
Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd success roll. The better of the two is kept.

4. Once a Forging attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success (a “best work” item, necessary in order to achieve a Perfect weapon).
The forge’s script/code suggests that a 5% chance of an E.S. was intended, with the hammer’s ownership/quality providing a bonus, but the code evaluates to the two If statements below:
If the forging-hammer does not belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. is 0.
If the forging-hammer DOES belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. = the hammer’s quality modifier.

5. Once a Grinding attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success. The grinder’s chance of an E.S is a flat 5% chance. No modifiers of any sort.

6. At the Grinder, Rogues, Rangers and Monks have a 0 professional handicap. Max Prof handicap is 40.
At the Forge, Warriors and Paladins have a -5 professional “handicap”. Max Prof handicap is 50.
At the Vise, Warriors and Paladins have a 0 professional handicap. Max Prof handicap is 6. (profession matters much less when assembling parts)

7. At the vise, if the assembly is successful (Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd success roll. The better of the two is kept.) the chance of an Extraordinary Success and a quality increase is determined by a 1-100 RNG vs. (the applicable Forging skill/50),
So the max possible is a 10% chance. A weaponsmith with an OHE forging skill of 400 would have an 8% chance of an E.S. when assembling an OHE weapon.

– Mikos


Date: 04/14/2017 09:43 AM CDT
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Erk, there’s a table in there or I’d put this in the saved posts on the wiki… hopefully someone else will. Thanks for the info, Mikos

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.


Date: 04/14/2017 10:28 AM CDT
From: VANKRASN39
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info

>Erk, there’s a table in there or I’d put this in the saved posts on the wiki…

there are tables on just about every technical page on the wiki to help you with format, but I’ll do this one.


Date: 04/14/2017 10:40 AM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
[material’s size penalty (each “pound” of material being worked is a -1 penalty)]
(working larger masses of material at the forge is inherently more difficult)

Cripes – no wonder I feel like I’m having such a hard time getting best pieces when doing some two-handed weapons. When the slabs require 8 or 9 pounds of material, that’s a -8 or -9.

[material’s magical-plus penalty (higher plus = higher penalty)]

That would also explain why I saw a lot more best pieces when working off +5 base material over +20.

+ [Forging stat bonuses averaged] (Effective Con bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)

My wizard is a bit lacking in the CON bonus department, plus being a darkie he’s got a -10 on his DIS bonus…even with the stat maxed, his bonus is 15. Thankfully he’s got a 24 bonus on strength.

{Comparatively, Grinder stat bonuses are (Effective Dex bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)}

This is probably why I see a lot more best pieces off the grinder over forging, too. He’s got maxed DEX (35), nearly maxed STR (24) and maxed DIS (15) bonuses.

It’s nice to see some more info given about this skill. It’s such a pain at time for me that I feel it’s broken – but it just seems my stat bonuses and large pieces of material I hammer out are what is making it feel that way with the lack of best pieces.

Thank you for the info!

-Drumpel


Date: 04/14/2017 01:49 PM CDT
From: JOEKUPS
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Unless I’m reading this wrong it boils down to: Modifiers for success, if success, then it’s just pure RNG for best piece.


If the forging-hammer DOES belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. = the hammer’s quality modifier.

5. Once a Grinding attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success. The grinder’s chance of an E.S is a flat 5% chance. No modifiers of any sort.


So really the secret that needs to be learned is: What material gives the best quality modifier? First guess might be rarer material = higher quality modifier? Is it just magic vs non-magic metal?
With a few exceptions, skills, stats, modifiers all wash out once you hit 500 artisan skill level and going for “best” pieces becomes on a success.


Date: 04/14/2017 03:43 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Thank you Mikos! It’s good to hear from you and even better to see you are still on staff! 🙂

RE: forging hammer’s quality modifier

Would it be possible to some additional detail around this? What are the possible value ranges? What determines the specific value? Usage over time?

Thank you again for all of the awesome information!

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 04/14/2017 03:55 PM CDT
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
<there are tables on just about every technical page on the wiki to help you with format>

I’m fine with editing tables, but creating them never goes smoothly for me. If I could still replace my monitor for $20 like I could 15+ years ago I’d give it a shot, but LCD screens are a lot more expensive.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.


Date: 04/14/2017 05:27 PM CDT
From: PEREGRINEFALCON
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
>> 7. At the vise, if the assembly is successful (Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd success roll. The better of the two is kept.) the chance of an Extraordinary Success and a quality increase is determined by a 1-100 RNG vs. (the applicable Forging skill/50),
So the max possible is a 10% chance. A weaponsmith with an OHE forging skill of 400 would have an 8% chance of an E.S. when assembling an OHE weapon.

This seems inconsistent with my experience and with others have reports. If I am reading correctly you are saying that the Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd vise success roll but does not provide any benefit to the chance for Extraordinary Success. From my experience Gift of Eonake must be providing some sort of benefit towards the chance for Extraordinary Success. If I had to guess I would say that Gift of Eonake is providing two E.S. rolls and keeping the best of the two.

Maybe I am just reading what you posted incorrectly.

— Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!


Date: 04/15/2017 07:59 AM CDT
From: DAID
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Thanks for this information Mikos. I did wonder about one point:

4. Once a Forging attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success (a “best work” item, necessary in order to achieve a Perfect weapon).
The forge’s script/code suggests that a 5% chance of an E.S. was intended, with the hammer’s ownership/quality providing a bonus, but the code evaluates to the two If statements below:
If the forging-hammer does not belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. is 0.
If the forging-hammer DOES belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. = the hammer’s quality modifier.

As far as your description, this sounds like the classic case of a bug. The comments and common sense say it should work one way, but it does not work as intended. Is this going to be fixed then?

>My wizard …

LOL. My forging character is also a wizard. Crazy forging dwarven warmage. Still this post with difficulties makes me happy, because my wizard always forges steel or mithril, never higher enchants.


Date: 04/15/2017 09:10 AM CDT
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
<If the forging-hammer DOES belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. = the hammer’s quality modifier.>

Bug or not, I don’t see this archaic code being tampered with in the near future…. so does anyone know what determines a hammer’s quality modifier?

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.


Date: 04/15/2017 09:15 AM CDT
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
I think that would be, “The quality of the forging hammer.” This is why people try to make superior (& especially perfect) forging hammers.


Date: 04/15/2017 11:53 AM CDT
From: CLUNK24963
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
ahem …

fer them of ye that caint figger what all that say’d, the short way of sayin it is ‘Clunk rules’.

<dwarf joke> get it?

Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)


Date: 04/15/2017 11:56 AM CDT
From: CLUNK24963
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
hmmm …

didn’t forging skill also ‘used to’ be affected by how much training you had in actually using the sort of blade you were forging?

Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)


Date: 04/15/2017 09:08 PM CDT
From: PFLATS
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Cripes – no wonder I feel like I’m having such a hard time getting best pieces when doing some two-handed weapons. When the slabs require 8 or 9 pounds of material, that’s a -8 or -9.
That would also explain why I saw a lot more best pieces when working off +5 base material over +20.
My wizard is a bit lacking in the CON bonus department, plus being a darkie he’s got a -10 on his DIS bonus…even with the stat maxed, his bonus is 15. Thankfully he’s got a 24 bonus on strength.
This is probably why I see a lot more best pieces off the grinder over forging, too. He’s got maxed DEX (35), nearly maxed STR (24) and maxed DIS (15) bonuses.
It’s nice to see some more info given about this skill. It’s such a pain at time for me that I feel it’s broken – but it just seems my stat bonuses and large pieces of material I hammer out are what is making it feel that way with the lack of best pieces.
Thank you for the info!
-Drumpel

Read the post again. Extraordinary Success (“best piece”) rolls are independent of every line you quoted.

If you’re failing to actually make a blade and need to rescribe, then yes, your “best piece” rate will inherently be lower, because you first have to roll 7 times to not screw up making the greatsword blade.

But if you’re not shattering bars/getting toothpicks/having to rescribe, then all of those numbers are irrelevant, and you’re just failing the d100 ES roll.

If the forging-hammer does not belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. is 0.

Once a smith gets the attuning message (“You feel as if you’ve become accustomed to the balance and heft of this forging-hammer.”) for using a forging-hammer someone else created, it’s considered theirs, right? I imagine so – I know the person using one of my hammers has had ES-es.


Date: 04/16/2017 02:51 PM CDT
From: ARMSTRONGR1
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
This happened to me a few weeks ago.
Been a master ohe, brawler forger for years.
I forge ora hafts and vultite blades, falchions and handaxes, and have never made a perfect.
My .. get tongs .. rt has always been 5 rounds of 540 seconds ( 9 minutes each round ). A few weeks ago it dropped to 4 rounds.
I have no idea why, except that we must somehow gain exp as we forge more blades?.

Anyone else have this happen or have an idea why?

Goldstr’s player Ralph


Date: 04/16/2017 08:56 PM CDT
From: KITHUS
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Different weapons require different numbers of GET TONGS to complete.

Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild

Date: 04/17/2017 12:06 AM CDT
From: ARMSTRONGR1
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info

Ah! Thanks. It probably did happen when I switched from forging a falchion to forging a handaxe. I just didn’t notice it was at the switch probably.

Ralph


Date: 04/19/2017 03:16 PM CDT
From: LORD-FRORIN
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
Can I just say right now for the record, Mikos is my hero.

I would much rather prefer gift of Eonak impact the 1-100 roll for extraordinary success of course, if anyone can convince the powers that be to make that one little adjustment that would be wonderful.

As it is now with certain metals the gift would not even guarantee success of creating a part let alone a best part. forging vultite i think it is at 600 seconds a rep unless your making a maul or a lance then you still risk shattering the slab or having to re scribe before you reach a finished product because the gift will wear off before your second success role.

I have to say I am truly grateful for these insights so many years not knowing for sure at least now I know a bad luck streak is just that.


Date: 04/19/2017 04:04 PM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
>As it is now with certain metals the gift would not even guarantee success of creating a part let alone a best part. forging vultite i think it is at 600 seconds a rep unless your making a maul or a lance then you still risk shattering the slab or having to re scribe before you reach a finished product because the gift will wear off before your second success role.

It’s the last round that determines the outcome of your blade attempt that I’m aware of.

This is what I’ve done while working on hammering out flamberge blades – each blade take 7 cycles. When working on a metal that doesn’t take a long period of time for a cycle (unlike Vultite that takes 540 seconds a cycle), like Mithril (240 seconds) or one of the flaring metals (drakar, zorchar, etc) I would hammer out all but the final cycle. So for each slab I hammered out, I’d go through 6 cycles and stop. I’d put that hammered piece into one container and I stockpiled them. I’d do this for as many slabs I could finish in that 45 minute window that Gift of Eonak would last me (I used 3 in a row for 45 minutes). That means I was able to hammer out 11 slabs on their last cycle before my Gift of Eonak ended.

The last time I did this I was working on gornar and I had 11 pieces of 8 pound slabs (for flamberge blades). I worked through 6 cycles on each one and left the 7th cycle for my Gift of Eonak. I then made sure I had all my necessary oils and a fresh stall rental and I worked the last hammer cycle on each slab while I had gift of eonak going. I got 5 best pieces out of 11, but it did cost me 3 Gift of Eonak to last me 45 minutes.

I think I got extra lucky with getting that many best pieces when I did this. But I was on my 4 slabs of gornar and hadn’t had much luck prior so I figured the use of the 3 gifts of eonak was worth the try. I did end up later making a perfect gornar flamberge (on my last set of best pieces) and she’s almost enchanted to 4x now.

-Drumpel


Date: 04/19/2017 09:07 PM CDT
From: LORD-FRORIN
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
I hear you but I ran my gift of eonak with 0 perfects vs your numbers so I’m not sold yet on the idea of it. granted it was all at the vice not in the forge but either I was twice as unlucky considering I had +5% chance at a better part, or I was doing something wrong.


Date: 04/20/2017 08:31 AM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info
>I hear you but I ran my gift of eonak with 0 perfects vs your numbers so I’m not sold yet on the idea of it. granted it was all at the vice not in the forge but either I was twice as unlucky considering I had +5% chance at a better part, or I was doing something wrong.

My last run at the vise I had 6 or 7 sets of best blades/hilts. I came out with 0 perfect.

My first run at the vise I had 11 or 12 best blades/hilts. I came out with 1 perfect (drakar flamberge). It was my last blade (I already used the 7 or 8 gornar blades) out of the stack I started with.

My second to last run at the vise I had 7 best blades/hilts. I came out with 0 perfect.
I cursed and cursed on my slow walk back to my locker that I didn’t make a perfect gornar flamberge….I pulled off my apron and removed my forging hammer and threw them into the locker. I was just about to shut the locker when I noticed 1 more best gornar blade (I’m not sure how I missed it since I have the items highlighted). I didn’t think I’d have any better luck with it, but it was my very last gornar blade (plus I had no more gornar slabs) so I crafted out a best hilt and turned to the vise – perfect gornar flamberge!

All those above attempts were with Gift of Eonak. I just have horrible luck when compared to others that’ll get 2, 3 or 4 perfect weapons out of the 12 or so sets they put through the vise.

All in all, I’ve crafted 4 perfect weapons in my whole time at the forge and I’ve probably put a 100-120 sets of best pieces through the vise. I can’t find the perfect mithril quarterstaff I made (not sure how I lost it, but it’s not on my warrior that uses quarterstaffs) so I took the small left over slab pieces and made a bunch of different metal quarterstaff heads and eventually ended up with a perfect zorchar quarterstaff that he uses against heavy armor/crit resistant creatures that his translucent vultite-alloy quarterstaff has troubles getting that crit threshold to kick in so the crit weighting helps. I have the perfect drakar flamberge and the perfect gornar flamberge that’s 5 days away from finishing it’s 4x enchant.

So, I haven’t had a lot of luck on the vise like others have, but at the same time I haven’t put in nearly as much time as some other people have. In fact, I’m probably on the low end.

-Drumpel

 

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